(gentle music) - [Bill] Welcome to "Ear To the Common Ground."

Here we celebrate the power of music and food to bring Americans together.

Filmed from a historic barn on Cash Lane in Music City, each episode features one musical artist and a diverse gathering of eight of their fans.

Everyone brings a dish to the table and they talk about one of the issues of the day, face-to-face, with compassion, replacing contempt as they keep their hearts, ears and minds attuned to the common ground.

Hi, I'm Bill Miller, and these are eight of my fans.

Dyana, John, Robbie, Julia, Susan, Miles, Robin and Alexandria.

Tonight we are focusing on "Separation of Church and State."

Let's celebrate America's greatest diversity, diversity of thought, and shine a light on some common ground.

♪ You're like a shadow ♪ ♪ That I'm hiding in ♪ - I think I'm gonna break this open then.

(guests laughing) - Go for it.

- So I was raised Catholic.

South American family, Peru and Ecuador.

- [Alexandria] That's cool too.

- But I also recently found out about my indigenous roots and I connect with that more than I have ever with my Catholic roots.

So then it becomes a conversation with family or friends like if they are a particular religion and then you're not then a lot of times you're shunned if you're not a particular religion.

And then so the conversation stops.

And so I have an an uncle, who's a evangelical Baptist, theologian somewhere, Escobar from Peru, and he was very, very, of course Christian, and we had great conversations and I would read about liberation theology and loved it.

But at the same time, when I say that I'm not a Christian or a Catholic or any European religion or any organized religion then a lot of times I find that I've gotten shunned.

- I'm really curious to know your position since you're a pastor on this subject, how do you approach it?

- First, as far as the separation of church and state?

- Yeah, - Ah, man.

You know, I think for everybody there's a couple of things with the whole deal.

When you think about the idea of separation of church and state, I guess my Christian viewpoint and where my faith is, you know I'll look at this, this way.

The faith I have is in Jesus Christ, and that's what I believe.

I believe he is the Son of God.

I believe that if you read in scripture you're gonna see that Jesus speaks love.

He speaks truth, He speaks peace, hope, I mean, all these things.

When I think of these things personally I think of 'em as things that are good and positive things.

Those are not negative things to me.

So when I think of those things I think of our country and I think of our states.

Why would I not want those things in our government?

Why would I not want those things to be seen in our communities and in our states and our homes?

So I kind of like it and favor it in some ways.

And then I look at the other aspect of it and say, well, do I want my government do I want my state even, or my community the city that I live in, to be able to govern when I preach or when I go to church or when I want to worship the way that I worship?

Should I have to be allowed to do that or should I be allowed to do what I wish?

Because I am a citizen of the United States and we're living in a free country a country that was founded on religious beliefs.

And I will say my personal belief is in Jesus Christ.

And I understand that there are other religions and faiths.

And my faith in Jesus, and if I read His word, tells me that I should love my neighbor.

And it tells me that I shouldn't judge.

It tells me to be good to others and do unto others as I have them do unto me.

So personally, I kind of weigh on both sides of it, but I believe that if you wanna worship, however you wanna worship and who you wanna worship, as far as I'm concerned, that's your right and your free will to do so.

- My family is packed with Christian nationalists.

So I had the viewpoint, I was going to political rallies when I was a child with my family and I saw how politics made, 'cause my mother was in politics.

I saw how politics made my mother bitter and my family angry.

And we were Christians, but it didn't show in the political arena, and they didn't approach it as a, "Well, let's just all let people do what they want to do and like, try to get along somehow."

It was more like, "If you don't believe the way I believe and you don't vote the way I vote, then you're not a Christian."

So whenever I encounter someone who is like, when we talk about separation of church and state, I get cringey (guests chuckling) because I grew up in all of it.

And it's kind of triggering to me to be honest, but that's why I'm really interested 'cause I didn't grow up with pastors who were open-minded.

You seem to be.

- I am.

And I'll be honest, I mean, there's times where I have not been as open-minded.

- I like what I'm hearing, but at the same time I guess I need to represent the voice that's never heard, and that's the indigenous voice.

Because Christianity was actually Catholicism Christianity, it was a political tool that was used to.

- Found countries - Do genocide, and basically kill my ancestors.

And some of my ancestors were killing my other ancestors.

And you know in Mexico City, there's the a book that the Spanish Crown had and it was a caste system of how light or dark a person's skin was.

And then a person was cast as either indigenous or European or Creole, or whatever, based on the color of the skin.

And that was also part of the Spanish Inquisition.

Like Lima became, in Peru, became the seed of the Inquisition in the new world.

In the new world, in the Americas.

But, so it's either you converted to Catholicism, to some kind of Christianity or you perished.

And so, like I'm sitting here today as that, somehow I've survived.

And whether it was because people had to become Catholic or a Christian in order to survive or die.

And so, that's the indigenous in this country and I mean, who knows how many of us are indigenous that we don't even know.

And I feel like we can't have a full conversation about separation of church and state if we don't talk about how religion was a tool of genocide.

- So we're in the year of 2022, we still say the Pledge of Allegiance with God in it in God we trust.

How does that make you feel as like an indigenous person?

- That's a hard thing to feel.

And even before I knew more of my roots I would still chafe at that because the reason for separation of church and state is not to say, "No you can't practice your religion."

It was "Yes, practice your religion, but it's "We do not want the government, the king, or whoever, to dictate what religion is going to be the religion of the country.

Or that people could be imprisoned for their religion, whether it's indigenous or Christian."

Unfortunately, indigenous people were killed for practicing their religion, the ghost dance, Sundance.

And so again you have to convert to Christianity, Catholicism, in order to.

So when that happens you don't have the separation of church and state that William Penn wisely realized that because he had been in prison that we need to have the the separation of church and state.

Practice your religion but don't use it in a governmental capacity.

And the Pledge of Allegiance was not endemic to the beginning.

That came as a patriotic impulse later on, so it's not even part of our beginning as a history.

- And neither is in God we trust.

- Neither is in God we trust.

- Eisenhower did that.

and a lot of people think that that was part of the founding fathers but it wasn't.

- So we're still punishing you in a way by making you say it.

- Definitely, definitely.

- We've gotten in a world that we're so PC.

- Politically corrective.

- (cross talk) We're walking on eggshells.

You're like, I don't wanna.

- Can I say that to you?

Can I say it, or you're already gonna be offended so you get to a point where you're wondering if you're should talk to someone about whatever.

- I don't feel like it's a valid thing for you to feel like you can't talk about Christianity, 'cause you can, really, in all sincerity, you can, your rights have not been taken away.

The rights that have been taken away still are to this day prosecuted and oppressed and I'm gonna use that word oppressed.

And so for me, it's very uncomfortable to hear you say, not you like.

(guests laughing) - 'Cause I (indistinct) It was me, 'cause I'm (cross talk).

- [Julia] That's my status coming out of me.

- Well I went to through same thing, right.

- True.

- I think everybody does.

But when you feel like you don't have to be the dominant.

I took my own opinion and my own mind and my own spirit, what I've got.

I just wanna be on a very minuscule self.

I wanna be myself.

I want God to be the best outta me, because I don't believe.

- Nothing wrong with that.

In anybody dominating anyone.

It's just love each other, be free - Most every day, I just pray to God.

I said, if I have a purpose today and if I can give my life to somebody else.

- Exactly, amen.

- Please, please give me the courage to follow your calling.

(chuckles) Otherwise we all start worrying about ourselves.

And now you're back around.

- At the same time, I'm just so grateful that I am here because I mean, if I was in some other countries, I wouldn't be able to I mean, there are still several countries I mean there's still several countries where it's one religion and women don't have rights, and things like that.

So at the same time I'm like, "Yeah we have things we need to work on," but I'm also very grateful that we're here and we can have these talks and we can have the freedom to have these discussions - To vote.

And speak openly.

- I get what you're saying Like, by far we have always been I guess the standard religion or the biggest religion, Christianity.

And so I won't argue that, but I think the fear and the things that come from it is the fear of losing that - If I am like identifying as being raised as a Catholic then we are in that seat of privilege of being the dominant religion.

And if we feel like we are under attack as Christians, Catholics, can you imagine what it feels like for those who are not which is your point exactly.

And Jewish faith, Muslim, I mean nobody has said that word at this table because it's a difficult word to say in the United States in the current climate but Muslims, so many other religions.

And why are we so afraid of that?

- [John] I don't think most people are afraid but I even in Israel right now they're really trying to take down Jewish faith.

- [Mike] As long as you have a choice, that's our freedom.

- What is behind that?

I don't think it's people with faith.

I think it's more of a (cross talk) - There's a lot of control.

Powerful corporations that run the world.

- I agree.

Like we need to educate people about it.

But we're not moving in that direction at all.

They're taking religion out of schools.

Now they don't wanna talk about black history and stuff.

So it's like we're going backwards in a sense.

Like we need to have these conversations.

- You're talking about separation of church and state was removing the Pledge of Allegiance removing prayer from school, removing those things.

I mean, what are your thoughts on those things?

- Well, I believe it's separation of church of state.

It's keeping the state outta the church.

Now, there's a lot of good things that faith-based organizations do and different faiths of all peoples but it's actually keeping them out of us and let us be our people, as a nation.

- So should you only practice your religion then in the worship space and not in the schools, or?

- Well, if it flows under the government I think we'd be a much better nation.

- [Susan] Well you have to think about it this way too?

There's two sides to the wall - I mean, there's countries over there with nukes so somehow we gotta defend ourselves, but.

- No, no, no, what I'm saying is you have the separation of church and state theory, idea is to keep church or state out of the church's affairs, but it's also to keep the church out of the state's affairs.

I mean, it's a two-sided wall.

- [Dyana] Are they intertwined in anyway?

I mean when you think about - They shouldn't.

- But they are.

- But that's the idea, but they do.

- 'Cause when someone gets sworn in, or something.

They're sworn on the Bible.

- So where's the line?

- Well, and also too.

- But that's based On the person, isn't it?

- If problems are created then the government can step in and take power over whatever faith or church it is.

And so we have separation of church and state but the government has the power to be in control over evil or people doing wrong things to each other.

And if they can connect that to any church organization, then they are a part of it.

- There's a lot of good churches out though there that still want to take our voice away.

Our freedom of speech.

- Then you run into things about Waco and David Koresh and it's like, "Where is the line?"

That occurred more out of guns and things like that, that kind of thing.

But technically it was a religion.

And so where is the line, who gets to decide?

- [Alexandria] I think that's the problem who gets to decide.

- When the government intervenes and it's okay as long as it's not your religion.

But then when does it become, and we started seeing that even just these past couple of years with Covid.

We had several churches that said, "We're not gonna close, we are gonna meet," and then here came what would be state authorities to say "No, you cannot meet."

And whether you agree with that or not it's like, "Where is the line?

Where does that line get to be drawn?

And who decides what the line is?"

- [Alexandria] And also like who has a higher power the state or the church?

I don't think we've decided that where it's always like this, it seems like.

- I believe that we're spiritual beings.

I'm sure Rob, everybody here would admit to it because once we physically die, I believe our spirits go somewhere.

So the people that didn't wanna wear a mask and stuff it ain't that they're trying to continue on a bad virus that very well could have been made by man, but just not having the fear of death.

Just not giving into the fears of a lot of things that each one of us can be afraid of.

- That makes sense.

You're talking about your spirituality but like sometimes we need to separate that and care about our neighbors, who aren't worried about worship but I'm still putting them in danger.

- [Susan] People that don't wanna die.

- Yeah, but I'm going to church and I'm not wearing my mask and then I come out and I hang out with a friend who is not going to church and I hate to bring up Covid but it's like we gotta separate our spirituality and think about our neighbor and love people, how we always preach.

Sometimes it's in that form like that's loving people by sacrificing and not doing what's comfortable for us.

- It all goes back to empathy.

- Yeah, it's empathy.

And I think we're we're missing that, we like to say love people, love God but under my terms and my condition.

- I think it comes down to moral compass and the whole big picture of things - With Covid, that was an a very interesting argument.

I know people that said "Oh well, our church is requiring masks now."

And some people didn't wear their masks and they would say, "Oh well, I can't believe they're coming in here.

They're killing Christians.

They're killing their fellow churchgoers."

And so, I kind of see both sides and at the same time, are you using God to protect your viewpoint?

You know what I'm saying?

- [Mike] I'm sure everybody went to the church went on their own merit.

It wasn't like they were like.

- And yeah that was my thing.

If you're that worried about it, I know my church offered different options.

Obviously, you could watch online you could go to our fellowship hall area where it was more separated and that kind of thing.

So if you came in and you thought there were too many people or you were uncomfortable, 'cause some were wearing masks, some weren't wearing masks, but again, you're starting to see that play out and where that politics, 'cause I do believe a lot of that, yes, it's a health concern but a lot of it was driven by politics, whichever side you fell on whether you were gonna wear a mask or not.

- [Mike] But a lot of our people did it outta fear though.

- A lot people did it outta fear too, yeah, but I think it's wrong for the government to play that game to cause people to fear things too.

And I'm not saying that they did it all the time but I'm saying I have seen that before, I think.

And like in California, I'm not sure, when all the covid stuff was going on I heard of like officials.

There was one minister that was preaching online and he was talking about how they had told him if he didn't shut his doors that they were gonna fine him and they fined him.

I can't tell you how many times it seemed like it was a lot though but I think that's wrong.

I mean, I have no issue with doing things, I think to be smart and do the right thing for humanity.

I mean we're one race, right, we're trying to do everything we can to preserve everybody that we can and not kill anybody with a disease.

I mean, who would want to do that?

I lost people during this mess that were very near and dear to me, so it's a tough deal.

But I really think it all boils down to we're human beings with brains, and we all have common sense, right, I think?

- No.

- Uh-um.

(chuckles) - Well, well we should.

We should use common sense and practice common sense.

I believe that are people that struggle with that.

- Or at least act like it.

(chuckles) I agree with you.

- [Robin] Have you driven on the interstate?

(chuckles) - I know, but I believe that we should exercise that common sense still.

Yes, if we're gonna be around a large group of people let's practice safe distancing, let's practice if need be, a mask.

- [Susan] I think too, like the government tells us to do things like wear our seatbelt and stop at red lights too, but nobody puts up a fuss about that, you know?

- That's right.

- I don't like them telling me to wear my seatbelt.

- But it's safety, it's like to keep people safe because people don't have common sense.

- And I think we need to realize too, like loving people is uncomfortable.

Look at Jesus.

He died on the cross, got crucified and that, but He loved us and He did it out of love.

So it's like, maybe you might hate wearing a mask and being with people, but you're doing it out of love and you're saying, "Okay, I respect you and I love you and I value you and I see you as.

You know as a Christian we see everyone, children of God.

So it's kind of like love is uncomfortable.

- And the fact that, even during the pandemic, if that's more exposed where people are giving their time or helping others and the people all end up being okay maybe that wouldn't have shined a positive light upon their control over what everybody could do or could not do.

- Look how we came together as a nation - [Alexandria] We had no choice.

- No we were stripped of everything.

And we forgot how to be human.

- [John] That's what.

- It was a nice reset.

- They wanted us be.

- [Dyana] Oh, is it?

- As you say treat others the way.

- Common sense says don't let 'em do it.

- You want to be treated.

And I really do think that should be our government motto.

I mean, isn't the government us anyway, as we say, we the people?

- [Drummer] Hello, everybody.

Welcome.

- Hey!

(guest exclaims) - Oh wow!

♪ Oh ♪ - Oh my.

- [Drummer] Here is dessert.

Yes, let's pass them around.

Southern style, we are in Tennessee.

- [Robin] Wait, which is what flavors?

- We're in Tennessee, so Bill and I, one of our favorite places to go to get the best donut on the planet, in our opinion, is Five Daughters Bakery.

- Great.

- Yes!

- So we got two of their signature styles here.

We got the chocolate sea salt - Woo hoo!

- With sweet buttercream.

Yum!

(guest exclaims) Hundred layer donut.

That's another one of their signatures right there.

The Purist, which is a hundred layered donut, also.

(person chuckles) - I'm a believer.

- Bill is more or less my savior on this earth.

- [Bill] Oh, oh, oh, no.

- No, and you know, many years ago, like I said, I heard a song and it really kind of brought me back to my faith.

- Oh.

- You did.

- Wow.

- Thanks John.

- I didn't know it until you get in touch with your fans or, that's a strange name fans.

But friends who love your music and not only love it but have understood the emotions in my music.

And I just appreciate you guys for doing that because that's what it's about.

It's a total connection to my soul when I play.

(mid-tempo music) ♪ Dark river, black skies ♪ ♪ Change is coming, don't cry ♪ ♪ Talk with angels, walk with men ♪ ♪ Seek your vision until the end ♪ (Bill vocalizes) (upbeat music) ♪ Dreams turn into prophecies ♪ ♪ The cry for mercy on your knees ♪ ♪ Dark river, black skies ♪ ♪ Change is coming ♪ ♪ Don't you cry ♪ (Bill vocalizes) ♪ Good God!

♪ ♪ Dark river, black skies ♪ ♪ Change is coming, don't cry ♪ ♪ Talk with angels, walk with men ♪ ♪ Seek your vision until the end ♪ (Bill vocalizes) (singing in foreign language) (upbeat music)